Ed Burzminski
Welcome to More Non-Dues Revenue semi monthly Zoominar podcast series sponsored by Chamber Marketing Partners, where we interviewed Chamber of Commerce leaders and visionaries to share their creative entrepreneurial strategies for generating non dues revenue. catch us live twice a month, or see prior zoom in ours at www. More Non-Dues Revenue not.com

This episode is non dues revenue begins with membership development. And we’ll cover three areas. First, how our membership sales different in 2021. Second, how to improve non dues revenue sales, and third, effective selling ideas and closing strategies. Now here’s what you’re going to learn trends and membership sales. You’re going to learn specifically about connecting non dues revenue with member recruitment. And you’re going to learn some down to earth sales philosophies for dues and non dues revenue.

Our sponsors Chamber Marketing Partners generating substantial non dues revenue from Chamber of Commerce publications without using a turnkey publisher, the chamber gets total control full financial transparency and uses local vendors. Some chambers have seen returns up to 30% from their award winning publications, visit www Chamber Marketing partners.com. To learn more, and follow us on LinkedIn. I’m your host, Ed Burzminski, President of Chamber Marketing Partners, let’s connect on LinkedIn. And now let’s get started.

Our guest is Doug Holman, partner in home and brothers membership sales solutions. based in San Diego, California. Doug and his brother Bill turned their experience working at the San Diego Chamber of Commerce into a sales training and coaching business, helping chambers of commerce sell more quality memberships that strengthen both dues and non dues revenue. Now I’ve heard both Doug and Bill speak at various Chamber of Commerce conferences, and I’ve always been so impressed by their down to earth, no nonsense style and their uncomplicated approach to selling Doug’s passion for creating value comes through loud and clear. I’m really so excited that Doug accepted our invitation. So that many of us in the chamber world can learn or actually relearn a few things, Doug, so glad you could join us.

Doug Holman
Thanks. And I’m actually excited to be with you. So pleasure.

Ed Burzminski
So let’s jump right in. Doug, tell us briefly, tell us about yourself. And exactly what problems does home and brothers membership sales solution solve?

Doug Holman
Sure, well, about me, you know, I’m one of eight kids. My brother Bill is my partner and I. And the rest of my siblings are not part of my business. They’re lovely people, but not really don’t really have sales in their blood, I suppose. But Bill and I started homing brothers about six years ago. And the problem that we solve is anything related to membership development, right. So anything from finding the right candidate, getting them hired, putting a pay structure in place that that keeps him motivated, but also is appropriate for the chamber. So you’re not, you’re not spending more than you bring in. And then probably most specifically, we, we really help and coach our, our clients to have a sales process in place so that if a salesperson does leave, your process doesn’t go with them. So you your chamber has the way that you sell the way that you retain the way that you the way that you market your sponsorships. And it’s it’s a system that you work with. And so you can plug people in and out of it, it’s probably the best way to explain it.

Ed Burzminski
So you create a membership sales process that resides with the chamber rather than an individual. So when an individual leaves, the process can continue, regardless of who’s in place.

Doug Holman
Yeah, it’s selling, sell. Selling really is a structured approach, right? So hiring a salesperson is about plugging somebody into the way you want it done, as opposed to trying to find a great salesperson, we want to find somebody who can sell, but they’re going to do it your way, because you can actually control that. And then you can actually prognosticate production, which is what is what all businesses do. It’s it’s not a foreign concept. But in chambers, we tend to think it’s mysticism at times, and it’s not.

Ed Burzminski
So let’s jump right into non dues revenue. Yes, that’s our focus. Doug, I’ve seen countless chambers over the years, effectively putting their hands in the pocket of their members so frequently during the year that a lot of times the members just kind of dread getting the phone call from the chamber because they’re assuming the chamber just calling with yet another fantastic opportunity. Right. And they really feel it’s just the chamber trying to pull money out of their wallets. What do you think about that kind of thought process or why even members feel that way?

Doug Holman
Well, I agree. members feel that way? Because, you know, that’s what chambers oftentimes do. Right? We have a, we have an event coming up, we need sponsorship. So we call folks and it tends to be, when we start talking about sponsorship mode, many, many members are small businesses, right? So most small businesses don’t have deep pockets. And so they’re not sponsoring much, if anything of what you do so you then start to have what 10 15% of your membership are those that can actually fund the programming that you want to do. So that turns into calling them with regularity? There’s a secondary challenge that attaches to it is is it the typical chamber sales process is let’s get him as a member. And then we’ll call them later to talk about other things, which, you know, if you think about, like, in your in your own life, I mean, you kind of want to know what all the expenditures are upfront, right? I mean, you wouldn’t build a house and have them tell you what it costs to pour the foundation, and then they pour the foundation and then they come back later, and then you start talking about, Hmm, what will the actual plumbing cost are the house itself? You kind of want to know that number on the front? It

Ed Burzminski
makes an awful lot of sense. And so how have you seen or how to chambers do that effectively? How do they communicate that upfront? Because you’re right, I mean, I, I wouldn’t want to be lowered. I feel like I’m lowered in and then have to continue to pay. What are you thinking chambers to effectively address that?

Doug Holman
Well, first off, you make a very good point. I don’t think chambers are trying to be deceptive in their practices. I don’t think chambers are trying to lead somebody down the primrose path or any of those things. It’s just, you know, this is the way that we do it. Right. So what Holman brothers works with with chambers on and, and not all our clients, right? Sometimes it’s just a conversation like this, but selling a membership is about understanding the challenges and the needs that a business faces. And And what if you do that, in an interview process, right, like Marc Loesch last week, made me really a lot of really strong and intelligent and well thought out comments in the in the points that he made was, you’re not selling a membership. You’re having a conversation with an individual and probably a business owner, to understand what they’re up against? What are the challenges that they’re facing? And then the goal is to identify Kenya chamber health. And so what we brothers says is a lot, we say that the chamber isn’t a fit for every business. And then sometimes that gets taken out of context a little bit. And again, Mark addresses too, it’s sometimes the timings wrong, right? I mean, they haven’t been in business long enough, or there’s something else that’s more prescient for them to address and your chamber can’t assist them with it. So when we speak with chambers, and we speak with our clients, specifically, we talk about identifying what are they up against, and then that’s how you can start if you start to think about your chamber as a multitude of options, right? So for example, what you do, like your, your program, your program for, for putting together, advertising opportunities, right visibility, we would say, and some people say exposure, but the reality is, is that your program is exactly the way it should be set up. Because from my end, on the sales side, I want a salesperson to be interviewing somebody, and all of a sudden realize they need, they need credibility, right. They need their name seen by people as mattering. They need advertising or they want to tell their story. And so the way that your program is set up, my sales person can actually in recruiting somebody learn that they need this. And we can put together a maybe we call it a mini package or a bundle, they can bundle advertising, membership, and maybe even a small sponsorship or a tabletop or something and create that in one asked, covering things for the whole year. That now set up. We now have reasons I now have reasons to call Ed throughout the year, right? To make sure that the advertisers but to make sure that they’re ready for the table. That makes sense.

Ed Burzminski
Yeah, it does. But how do you suggest a membership salesperson knew that you know, is it a one call? Is it a development process? Isn’t asking a bunch of questions? It sounds time consuming?

Doug Holman
Well, it is it will be It is time consuming in the sense that we’re taking the time to get to know the individual and their business and and how the chamber can help them right. So that takes longer than if we just try and say do you want to join here’s what it is and then we later go later on we’ll find out if if they need advertising or after that we’ll find out if they want to purchase Pick the golf tournament or anything else. So yeah, on the front end, it does take a bit longer to, to really learn about a business and get them engaged in your chamber. But if we really look at it, like, just if we look at it just holistically, right, we look at the entire tire operation, the goal isn’t to sell memberships, the goal is to bring in long term members. So if on the front end, we spend more time learning about them, and, and provide the right information, and we we put them in the right places, then when then when we call them throughout the year, we’re fulfilling our promises, instead of what you opened with calling and asking for more money. That’s the worst thing you wanna do you want to make somebody happy, don’t call them and keep asking them for money, call them and provide service.

Ed Burzminski
So it sounds like it’s not a one call close. It’s around like it’s a it’s a development process. Getting to know the client the prospect over time, right, asking pointed questions. And I’m just kind of making an assumption here, not a pitch. But that’ll get you about what’s important for them.

Doug Holman
Right? Yeah, it’s. So I’ve been in sales basically my whole life, right? I mean, from from the time I was 16, I sold the Los Angeles Times door to door in San Diego, right. And I and I’ve had other other sales jobs as well. So oftentimes, we all have like a, like a little black spot in the back of our head, where it’s like lose sales, we all kind of cringe when you get to talk to a salesperson, right? We we work with our clients to make sure that their membership development folks are business consultants, your job is to consult a business, understand them and point them in the right direction of how they can look at and address their problems.

Ed Burzminski
In the past, you and I have talked about needs based and royalty based methods in the sales process. Yeah. Can you explain that the two of those and and how do you effectively use each one of those in the sales process?

Doug Holman
Yeah. I’m glad you brought that up. It really there’s a key distinction of this right. So if so, if we look at if we if we talked about needs based because I just did right. So needs based, like I mentioned with advertising, if if advertising is appropriate for for the prospect who ideally will become a member, then we’re we’re selling them? sponsorship is we’re selling them advertising based on having learned that they need to get the word out, right, that they need more visibility. And so that’s definitely needs base, right. They say not too many people know who we are. And then we go, Okay, well, here’s, here’s how I can help you. When we talk about royalty based, oftentimes royalty based is is really, but chamber receiving an override if we get businesses to use a particular product or service, right. So probably the the most known type of benefit, like that is going to be like an Office Depot or officemax. program, right? Well, you know, anybody listening on this, when’s the last time you spoke to somebody about membership. And the thing that closed the deal was, I can get a discounted office Office Depot. It doesn’t close a sale, right? However, when you have programs like that, and you get members enrolled, and that’s the key thing, you have to you have to enroll them. So that becomes your service component. So when you when you’re wondering throughout the year, why should I call that? And you go? Well, I wonder if you signed up for Office Depot? I wonder if he signed up for our mobile phone plan? Right? What? So you call us here and I was looking, I’m not sure if I mentioned this to you. And I don’t see that you’re enrolled in the program. And you know what programs in the Office Depot program, you could be saving 15 20%. And then you didn’t know you had it? And then I say and this is the key thing. I don’t say, Oh, well go to my website and sign up. I say, Well, hey, do you have a couple of minutes, I can take the information for you. Let me sign you up. And show that those royalty based become opportunities to call and show the member that thought about them. You believe it will help them and then you’re going to do the work. So remember it like this. Don’t give homework assignments, do the work for them.

Ed Burzminski
That brings up something that I want to change. By the way. I’ve been a member of the Office Depot program for the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce for about 11 years.

I’ve been there for 11 years. Yes, yes. And I’ve benefited from that program for for all that time. But it wasn’t the reason I joined I was happy to have it and I continue to use it to this day. Because I like the little benefits, but there was a chamber here in California, a relatively small chamber that they were using the benefits of chamber master. Were and I guess now all the other ones do this to where you can populate your profile. Well, the chamber, it was a smaller chamber so the chamber CEO would gather the information for that business that that she was signing up or even prior to signing them up. And she would populate the information into the chamber master profile for that business. So that business wouldn’t have to, and then she would send them the link and say, why don’t you update this to what you feel is is best? So she did the homework for them. It was a lot of extra effort. But she said her retention was a lot higher. Absolutely. And she had she not done that.

Doug Holman
Yeah. So I think this is a good term for people to, to maybe grab on to. And when whenever you bring on a new member, the next step in your process is what I call benefit fulfillment. You made promises, there’s benefits that they want, and then there’s benefits they need to know about because we can’t tell them about everything on the front end, right. Some of like these Savings Programs, we’re going to tell them about it over time. But benefit fulfillment is really what retention should be called. I think retention is a a foul sounding word, right, we retain our members think about that. It’s cringy. But if we fulfill our promises, or benefit, fulfillment, fulfillment of benefits, anything like that, it puts us in the right frame of mind to what we’re actually trying to accomplish when we communicate with our members. Right. Be nice to nice things help them that you’ll retain a lot more right.

Ed Burzminski
Yeah, and it’s a lot less expensive to retain, not again as to generate a new member. So question for you. Harris Shapiro had a comment. He says he believes the membership investment presentation should show what is included in the costs? And what are additional costs, which are non dues revenue? Well, what are your thoughts about in that presentation? How does a schedule of opportunities throughout the year help? How does that work?

Doug Holman
Oh, well. I mean, I’d have to talk to here a little bit to see what he’s saying that but conceptually, I, I my personal belief, and my professional belief is, is that most people don’t want to see all the numbers, they don’t need it all spelled out for them. They want to know, what am I receiving and why. So what they don’t want is for you to throw things in there that you never talked about. And they don’t. Other than that, we actually work with our clients to put together a bundle a package that sounds something like this, right? If I’ve spoken with somebody, I’m now going to make a recommendation on investing in the chamber, the recommendations based on the conversation that we had. And the record, when I make a recommendation, it also makes them feel unique, instead of saying, oh, here’s the membership you need, and I go to a thing that already has all of it, if I do that, I I haven’t taken the it doesn’t feel like I’ve taken the time to actually put something together for them, I just have these things I pull off the shelf, you know, it’s the difference of buying a suit off the rack, or having a suit tailored. So I want our clients to tailor the suit, make sure it fits, and they are crisp and ready to go. Right. So my recommendations gonna be here based on the three problems you shared with me, Bobo, boom, my recommendation is, the investment will be this and here’s the recommended the recommended course of action to address those problems. That’s what a membership in my mind becomes is a tailored solution for each member.

Ed Burzminski
Well, that makes a lot of sense. And I just get back to time. As a small business owner myself, I get phone calls a lot. And generally a lot of emails about you know, improving your website and that kind of stuff. I’m just gonna pass right over it because it’s just a pitch. I can help you improve this by 100% really, you know nothing about my business. So how can you improve anything about my business? Right, you know, as a as a membership salesperson, you’re reaching out you’re making phone calls and effect you’re dialing for dollars. And and so what would you suggest somebody? What would be an opening approach? Do you know for somebody who’s made a cold call, you want to ask these questions, but you haven’t developed a relationship with somebody yet?

Doug Holman
There are chamber professionals all across this country who use home and brothers system and here’s what it sounds like when bed answers the phone. It goes like this. Hey Ed, it’s dunkleman from from the Conejo Valley Chamber of Commerce, but I hope I’m not interrupting anything. First thing Then you say yes or no. And let’s say you say, No, I’ve got some time I say, Hey, I really appreciate that. Are you familiar with our organization at all? I’m going to ask you a question. So, general knowledge, what do you know? So you’re going to tell me something? Right? Once you tell me something, then I’m gonna say, Okay, so, clearly, you’ve heard of us. So you’re aware that we are a, we are a business met? We are. We are a membership organization that supports local businesses. Would you mind if I shared why so many businesses have taken an interest in our organization. And then you say, Okay, and then I’m going to share three problems that I think you have. And reasonably predictable. If you’re a small business, you have, you want more customers, you have visibility problems, and credibility is a challenge for you, right? So I’m going to say, businesses cut have found our organization because they’re frustrated that they don’t have enough people to share their great products and services with, they’re sick and tired of not being able to stretch their marketing dollars far enough. And we get an awful lot of folks that come to us, because the business down the block who’s not nearly as good as them, is rated higher by everybody. And they want to change that. Say to do any of those things resonate with you at and then typically, they’ll say, visibility, ultimately, because they don’t want to say I’m not credible, and they don’t want to say I don’t have any money. So they’ll pick visibility, and then we start talking to them about it. And that’s, that’s where the questions come in next to learn about why is that a problem? What have you done? What have you what other things could you try? And that’s why we have to have a conversation. Because here’s the last thing I’ll say on this, and this, I hope this resonates with everybody. Most of the businesses in your community don’t know what you do. So if you don’t talk to them and try it, try and explain it to them, they’re not going to know what you do.

Ed Burzminski
Make sense? So that’s you’re approaching a smaller business. Now question, migrating that to a larger business to major investor level type business, they’re looking for different things. But does the questioning process work the same? I mean, obviously, you take me tweak it a little bit, but as the process somewhat similar,

Doug Holman
it just is it’s it’s almost exact, however, the problems become more more along the lines of what a larger business would face, right. So they’re sick and tired of legislation permits and fees that are hampering their ability to grow. They’re, they’re sick and tired of being the last person to know, right? So we make it about we make it about policy, we make it about ego, right? We make it about so it’s really access influence resources. That’s what we do with larger businesses. It’s it’s more of theory, right? It’s not as they don’t have a problem that’s like, then they don’t have the big businesses aren’t coming to the chamber and saying, Hey, can you help me make five more sales? Like, they come and go, I’ve got a problem they do. We need a bus stop for our employees to get here. And and I can’t get one, come to the chamber and the chamber starts making some calls and do stuff. So things like that.

Ed Burzminski
Got it. So it’s a similar approach. It’s just the the types of questions are more adapted to what a larger organizations needs, our larger organization may or may not be so much interested in visibility, although they could depending on what they’re supporting, but they’re more interested in higher level local regional issues that are affecting them on a broader scale. smaller businesses.

Doug Holman
Listen, all businesses want visibility in some way, shape, or form. It’s just not tantamount. Oftentimes for a larger business. Yeah, larger businesses. This is an area where we have, we have significantly changed the game for our clients, because we work with our clients on how to have a conversation with a large business. That’s about investing into their community investing into what matters to everybody, as opposed to talking to a big business about a membership or talking to a big business about this perfect sponsorship. We probably we probably don’t have a perfect sponsorship for a large business, right? Because they could probably just advertise on radio, and spend about the same amount of money and get way more ears. So it’s really about larger businesses want the community to be great. Go look at their website, their website says we support the communities where where our employees live, work and play. Guess what you are chamber. You are the community. So they’re actually saying we want to give you money, but you have to speak our language. You know,

Ed Burzminski
when you and I talked on the phone last week, you shared with me a story about a chamber CEOs mindset about approaching a major investor, a member of larger businesses was around. There’s been a member for a while. And you told me about how you helped him change the mindset about how much of an investment? Do you know which one I’m talking about? Which store?

Doug Holman
Yeah, yeah. Would you share that? It’s actually and I don’t think he would mind if I says it’s my friend, Joe hunter Reiner. In in Kalispell, Montana, when Joe and I chatted, and we met at a conference, and we chatted, and, and, and Joe, like so many, like so many CEOs in the chamber world has $1 amount that this is what I can ask for. Right. And it’s just kind of because you look at your do scheduled eyebrows. And so what we worked with Joe on was the, the amount you can ask for is based on is based on the conversation you have, and the value that you share when you tell your story and learn their story. And we marry them together, right? So and, and it goes back to something I shared previously. And the idea being that you’re not going to go with a pre ordained, here’s what the membership is, when we visit with a large company, we’re gathering information. So we can put a proposal together. So we’re crafting this for them based on what we’ve learned. And then our follow up meeting, when we go through the proposal, the large business actually goes, you know, that took the time to go back and think about what we talked about. And he’s created this, this, these suggestions for what I’m up against. And when you do that, then then then then the CEO actually looks at and goes, Okay, this isn’t a cookie cutter, he he’s actually making recommendations based on me and my business. When you do that, you can start raising the bar of what you ask for. Because you’re no longer just pulling out a sheet of paper and going Which one do you want. And here’s the other thing. larger businesses don’t make decisions. The minute you walk in the door, they have a process and part of their process is a proposal. It’s kind of a real world thing. So we’re mirroring what they expect. So then you can start asking for more money, because you can create that value.

Ed Burzminski
What was the end result of that

Doug Holman
story? The end result was Joe thought that it was an existing member that and dollar amounts don’t matter. Right. So I’m not going to worry so much about dollar amounts, I’ll just say it like this. It was an existing member that he thought that he thought he could get them to double their investment, because they had a new seat. They had a new bank president. What Joe did was they raised the investment nine and a half times. Instead of doubled it, they went nine and a half times by having a real conversation and finding out what really mattered to them. That’s significant dollars. So I don’t talk about actual dollars because you know, $5,000 to one chamber might be Oh my God, we got 5000 another chamber Miko, we got five grand. Yeah, just right. So

Ed Burzminski
but it’s relative, but the double to almost 10 times the original ask, because of the value proposition because of the custom tailored value proposition.

Doug Holman
That’s huge. And that was the first time they did it. So they weren’t even good at it yet. That was the first. So they were kind of meandering, right. And so, and I actually I need to call Joe, because I’m sure those numbers are way bigger than than, than that now. So which is fantastic. And they’re working the process.

Ed Burzminski
So I’m gonna switch over a little bit to membership sales. And this last year, we’ve all adapted, and we’ve become more creative since COVID-19 hit? How is selling memberships different today? than it was, say, a year and a half ago?

Doug Holman
Yeah. So. So it’s kind of a that’s kind of a trick question. I don’t mean that in a bad way. Right. So as far as the way that home and brothers teaches our clients and coaches, our clients, it’s not different at all, in the sense of follow your process, right, ask questions, learn about them, the significant change that has happened, and actually our clients are doing really well, because they have a process, right? Because what but what has happened, the significant change, and I’m sure there’s many membership folks on this zoom that are with us right now, that that get this loud and clear what they’ve been accustomed to selling to people. They don’t have any more write a networking event, a live networking event where maybe 75 or 100 or 300 people will be there. So that is not that is not on the table in the way that was so if if your if your ci way of speaking to somebody about joining your chamber was to talk about live events and and building relationships through that manner. You’re out of business, right? So so that’s why when I bring it back To. So there has been a significant change. However, if you’re accustomed to identifying problems, and then connecting chamber solutions to those problems, you’re going to sell memberships. And you’re going to retain memberships. Because you, you can fulfill your promise. If your promises, I’ve got a great networking event for you to go to. Where are you doing that? Where you send it? Because? Because most most of our clients, if not all of them, they’re there. They can’t do it. Yes. So that’s, to me, that’s the significant difference, we have to focus on the value we actually provide and not the venue.

Ed Burzminski
So it sounds to me like what you’re saying, the process is the same, your question and your line of questioning is different. The issues that are affecting a business these days? Well, obviously, we know there’s businesses are affected so many different ways right now, particularly restaurants and others, asking some strategic questions about what how I’m going to throw these off the cuff you correct me if I’m going in the wrong direction? How? How are you doing with opening up? how, you know, in ask ordinances, are you having any issues with the city, and that we are affecting your ability to grow and open again, a big issue right now, I understand is the ability to hire people, because they’re making more money sitting on the sidelines? That’s that could be a question to ask, Does that kind of make? Is that going in the right direction?

Doug Holman
Yes. If you can say no, no, no. Any and all of those might be great questions to ask, here’s the key component is, in any, if we have an attorney on this call, they will go. Good Cop Perry Mason, you’re not going to ask anybody a question that you can’t answer or salt. So so if I can’t help you with mask ordinances, I’m not going to bring it up. Because it’s just gonna lead me down a path of a conversation of something that frustrates you that I can’t do anything about. So my questions have to be aligned with what can my organization accomplish? Right, so many salespeople in all kinds of industries, get themselves in trouble every day by start starting to talk about something that they can’t deal with? Like, here’s, here’s a perfect example. Right? Like, sales, people seem to love to ask this question. And when I hear it, I cringe. Right? Well, what keeps you up at night? Like, what if they say, you know, I mean, what if they say, Donald Trump? Or Joe Biden? What am I gonna do about that? Yeah. So now I’m now I’m way over here. And what I really want to talk to him about is the challenges and I’m pretty sure they have if you’re a small business, a pretty dead GM sure that you have a revenue, revenue challenges, you have a visibility problem, and you have credibility pumps. So those are the types of questions I’m going to ask. Is that fair?

Ed Burzminski
Yeah. Makes sense. It helps

Unknown Speaker
you right?

Ed Burzminski
It helps clarify that line of questioning. So it’s not vague. It’s, it’s really going at what your organization can do. What are you good

Doug Holman
at? Yeah. What is your organization good at? And it’s okay, if you’re not good at some things, but my suggestion would be the things you’re not good at the things you’re not good at two things. One, the things you’re not good at, stop trying to do it. Right, if you’re not good at it, move on. And then the second thing is, is that if you’re not good at and you don’t do it, don’t mention it, because you can’t do anything anyways.

Ed Burzminski
Makes a lot of sense.

Doug Holman
Yeah, we try to be we try to actually boil it down to kind of simple like, What am I supposed to be talking about?

Ed Burzminski
In your opinion, what do chambers do? Well, what’s the chamber? What are all? What’s a core value or value proposition that every chamber has?

Doug Holman
Yeah, so I, I don’t think there’s I know this, every chamber is, is doing something to better their community, the business community and the community. At one chamber, it might be that they do the Fourth of July parade every year. Well, that Fourth of July parade is seen as a significant a significant moment in in their their town every year. If that parade went away, people would be bothered. So if the chamber does that you’re part of the fabric of your community. So I’m chambers are great at policy. Some, some chambers are great at that. Some chambers are great at networking. Some chambers are great at education. Some chambers have nine things they’re great at. Just understand that it really is it matters to your community. And when I say community, those two things, it’s the business community, but it’s also just your community. All of those things right.

Ed Burzminski
Also, you bring something up about the parades A couple programs ago, we had Bruce Hill, the guys from tomball, Texas on with us and his team. They were talking about doing an annual parade and an annual pageant. Okay, that puts them into that. What is it the party’s parades? When what what forget what the other P is category versus a three c category. But good Bruce really was adamant about, you know, this is something that’s really important in our community. It’s something that our community really looks to us to produce and generates a ton of revenue for the chamber. So he was saying, you know, it depends on your community. But if you have programs like that, that the community really likes, wrap your arms around it and be proud of it.

Doug Holman
Exactly. 100 just for the record, my good friend, Michelle West who said pancakes, that’s your last P. Hardee’s pancakes is the is the third p in your pancakes. Thanks, Michelle. Yeah. You, Bruce is absolutely correct. I think you said the gentleman’s name is Bruce right. But if you’re doing something, if you’re doing something just for the revenue, eventually it’s going to bite you in the butt. Because it’s just a revenue, right? But if you’re doing something because it is significant, and your community, your community sees it as this is part of who we are, you know, like, like, if you go to the Convention and Visitors website they talk about every year we do the annual chili cook off, and people come from from other areas to go to your chili cook off because it’s a it’s a big deal, then, yes, you should do that. Because Because if your community lost it, your community wouldn’t be as

Ed Burzminski
good. And then what is it? What is the economic impact of having that in the community, you’ve got this, you got a parade or you got a chili cook off it not only is it generating revenue for the chamber, but it’s also generating revenue for the local businesses, for the hotels, where people are coming to stay for the restaurants where people are going to dine there. You know, the shops that depend on people that are coming through. Now, like you say, it’s not it doesn’t work for every community. But if it is something that’s strong, and it’s been successful, why not even if it’s not exactly what is the Chamber’s core competency? Sounds like it is because it’s generating business.

Doug Holman
You can even go beyond business, right? So if you take something like that, it’s also the fabric of the community of what makes those the folks who live in that community, love that community. Well, if you own a business, and you’re trying to retain employees, you know, if you’re talented, nothing like your town, just you know, we have nothing feels like, which what’s your town’s model, but we do nothing? We’re, what do you mean nothing like nothing. So towns have things, they’re no work. And the people are proud of that, and it makes them happy. So so you have to have some. Now I’m not on this call, I’m not suggesting All of you go, Oh, my God, we’ve got it we’ve got to have, if you’re the one responsible for doing that, and people love it, there’s a lot to be said, for continuing to do that. And you can have that as part of your value proposition when you speak to business, especially larger businesses that the chamber is proud to be part of the fabric of this community. You know, again, we’re tying it together, right?

Ed Burzminski
Make sense? I’ll share one. One thing, too, that I’ve seen works at some chambers that wouldn’t work with others. And I want to wrap up so we can get to the q&a. In Texas. There are several chambers. I don’t know how many it’s a couple of our clients do this. They’ll do a monthly gun raffle. They’re in one to gun show.

Doug Holman
I live in California, like you say gun, Ralph, when people in California go. Did you see gum or gun? Right?

Ed Burzminski
We are it wouldn’t work where I am in Los Angeles. I mean, that would that would just be you know, a sin. But it does work in this in these communities, where it’s it’s part of the fabric of the community and at this chamber makes a boatload of money. Rhonda, but we’re already spring branch. And it’s been it’s been very successful. Yes, but exactly. work elsewhere. So the old adage, if you see one chamber, you’ve seen one chamber?

Doug Holman
Yeah, exactly.

Ed Burzminski
Doug, I want to move into the q&a is the questions. And thank you for sharing all this information.

Doug Holman
I truly hope it’s helpful.

Ed Burzminski
Judi Hays is helping us with fielding questions, Judy. I haven’t been able to see any of the questions that come through. Do we have any questions that have been coming through that? We’d like to ask Doug?

Judi Hays
Yes, we do. We have one from Harry. And he said. He said this. I believe the membership investment presentation should show what is included costs and what are additional costs which are non dues revenue. And so it’s just a matter of being transparent and letting them know what’s available. So what’s your thoughts on that?

Doug Holman
Yeah, we kind of addressed it a little bit. I mean, I mean, here, I do agree we, we, we shouldn’t be sneaking up on people. And we should, we should make them aware of what we might ask for in the future. And probably the only in this is probably not a difference. I would in the interview process of determining, should they be a member, and then then if we just, if we determine that they should be a member, I would say that we should just lay out for them, that the total investment from the beginning so that we’re not even asking for money down the road, we just we know what it is. And then there is a slight caveat to that, if there’s some things that we think they might do, we would say, you know, there are, you know, like this event where most of our events have a cost associated with them. And I can share those numbers with you if you’d like to see it. But some people do that, you know, one by one. So we shouldn’t keep it a secret that we do ask for. You know, we have ticket prices and things like that.

Judi Hays
Okay, excellent. Um, one other question came in is, it was chamber. The source here, did a poll, and chambers a growth zone. And they came up with a list of the Top 10 non dues revenue sources. So while this was, you know, since the onset of COVID, events came up, number one, but advertising came up number two, so the question is, how viable our publications, are chambers still doing them? Do you think that that will start to be significant as things open up? What’s your thoughts on that?

Doug Holman
I will, so publications are advertising, right. So you know, it just depends how I think you said number two is advertising. So publications have advertising in them. What I mentioned in the beginning of this, and I and I, I, I believe this 100%, the way that Ed structures, his program, where the chamber if they want to can sell the advertising themselves, is a perfect thing for salespeople, because now the salesperson can actually offer a full range of these are all the things I think you need from my organization to solve your challenges. when when when the advertising is out of the control of the salesperson. So in other words, the salesperson can’t sell it, they don’t talk about it, because they’re not going to bring up something that’s going to gonna become a problem for them. And so it’s really important to talk about advertising on the front end. And chambers should be able to when they can control it, have publications that work very well for them. That’s not always true for every chamber, but publications are an awesome opportunity for for the for your members to get messaging out.

Ed Burzminski
It is and especially for those that like you say a lot of members or prospects and businesses are looking for visibility. And especially when you can control the ad sales, you’re you’re you’re able to offer that business visibility in a number of different ways you if their budget is whatever it is $1,000, you can offer them email blasts, for instant visibility, ready to buy type visibility, yeah, you can offer them advertising in a publication or online that gives them more branding, which is not ready to buy. It’s more I’m, I’m visible among my peers, and I’m connecting with a particular audience. So yeah, there are ways that you can change it and structure when you have more control over that. Thank you for mentioning our business. I didn’t want to have this be about us and what we imagined does kind of wrap into that. So

Judi Hays
okay, there’s another question that came in. And I think I can add something to this. That person said, it’s anonymous. They’ve relied on events. And you mentioned that is a dead end. What are some tips for chambers who have relied upon events for networking, to shift from that being the primary value proposition? And, you know, go ahead and Doug, if you want to jump in? Yeah. So.

Doug Holman
So for one, I would say, if you didn’t listen to mark Loesch two weeks ago, listen to what he talked about about business roundtables, which I think is a is a is a good avenue to go down. And and and Mark knows way more about it than I do. But I loved his concept of trying to get out of the the networking, the getting out of the networking business to a certain extent and putting like minded people and peers together where they can actually help each other on a number of fronts. So that would be one thing. The second thing is not not to be a you know, to be a broken record here. But if you convert your process from selling the sizzle the event right, and change your process to speaking with each prospect to understand the challenges as they face them. Then you can align Their challenge with a solution from your chamber, right? So if we take networking as an example, you know, somebody wants to network. So why do they want to network? What are they trying to accomplish? Are they trying to meet more people so they can sell to them? Are they trying to find a new employee? Are they trying to market themselves? Yes. And there’s, there’s numerous other reasons why they might want to network. So if you make your purpose to understand why, what’s there why, then you can then align many different things that your chamber does to help address that doesn’t mean you can totally solve their problem or all their problems. But you can say, Look, do you believe that this will help you move in the direction that you want to get to? That’s what we do when we talk to somebody about joining the chamber.

Ed Burzminski
And you hit on something key there, networking versus selling. There are so many people, I’ve been in this industry since 1993. And I’ve been to a lot of breakfasts and mixers, and that kind of thing. And there are people who really, who really don’t understand it’s not that they’re dumb, they just don’t understand the difference between networking, and selling. And people come to an event and sell and immediately turn people off. Because when they’re selling, I’ll share this one story. It’s it’s like seared into my head, I was at an event at an evening event, it was at a bar restaurant, and I’m walking across from the bar to the restaurant area, and wearing a jacket tied in with my, you know, chamber membership with the name tags. And there’s a lady coming across the other direction. And she’s coming up to me and she’s saying, oh, you’re with the chamber here, too. She says, You look professional. My company helps with personal image, and grooming, and we help with hairstyles and we even help with nose hair. She actually said nose hair. And I you know, suddenly I’m thinking to myself, Oh my god, what?

teaching, maybe having a program, the difference between selling and networking and when it’s appropriate. So I

Doug Holman
explained it like this, when we talk about selling in networking, the the networking is first impressions, networking is marketing yourself, right? networking is putting a face and a name and an image in front of other people. So networking is never selling, selling is a completely. So you network in order to just see if somebody might talk to you in the future. And then that opens up your opportunity to sell if you lead with selling in a networking environment. Don’t go, you’re literally wasting your time.

Ed Burzminski
And I’ll add to that, that networking is about learning about other people’s businesses. A real good question that I’ve learned to ask is, what does an ideal client look like for you? Listen to what they say. And file that away.

Doug Holman
By the way, there is one exception to the there’s one exception to the rule there is there is one person, one type of business they can actually go to a networking event and sell. You know what it is? What girl scout cookies, if you show up and you sell Girl Scout cookies you can sell because everyone goes oh, my God, you have anything? That’s right. So that’s the only one, the rest are all out. Okay.

Judi Hays
One last comment here. Somebody said, Marcy. Linda Williams, I’m not sure which chamber you’re from. But you said you’ve had a huge increase in requests for tourism related materials. So that’s fantastic news. And everyone just wanted to know, I put a link to Mark latias episode in the in the chat there if you want to grab it. Perfect.

Ed Burzminski
Yep. And this this webinar, Paul luminar, will be on More Non-Dues Revenue comm tomorrow, and that’s where all the previous and Mark lashes on there as well. More Non-Dues revenue.com hosted on Chamber Marketing Partners. But Doug, I want to thank you. This has been a great conversation. It’s

Doug Holman
good.

Ed Burzminski
And I do want to share that Holman brothers on Thursday, May 20, at 11am pacific time, is doing a webinar on member recruiting, voice member recruiting voicemails your ultimate step by step guide, and that’s at www.holmanbros.com/Virtual-Training. I’m Ed Burzminski for Chamber Marketing Partners, let’s connect on LinkedIn. And let’s supercharged, More Non-Dues Revenue from your publications if you want if you found value in this episode of More Non-Dues Revenue, then subscribe. drive to the videos on YouTube. listen to the podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify among others, or visit More Non-Dues revenue.com. stay relevant and keep on making a difference in your businesses, for your businesses and your community. Onward and upward everybody.

Thanks for joining us.

For any of these things through which your chamber has the board ever said, You’ve got to take the directory in house to staff sometimes say we should really just do this directory ourselves. Are turnkey publishers giving you grief or could your in house publishing perform better. We’re Chamber Marketing Partners and we turn the royalty around. Your members pay the chamber directly for advertising in their publications. We manage the project for a chamber just like a general contractor manages building a house for you. We manage putting a business directory communicate Community Guide relocation guide visitors guide map together for you as an in house project where Chamber Marketing Partners www Chamber Marketing partners.com

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